posted
I have a question for you LEO's here on the board. I am curious about your ideas about the Second Ammendment and how it influences your job.
Let's say you are out on patrol, nothing really going on. You somehow come across a younger man, say no older than 26. You either saw him walking in a normal fashion in public, or pulled him over for a minor traffic violation. When initially talking with him, he seems responsible and respectful; he seems like a good guy.
Soon after stopping him, though, you discover that he has a firearm on his person (holster'd, under a car seat, glovebox, etc). He does not have a conceal and carry permit. Do you arrest him?
Please explain a bit about your choice. Does their age matter, assuming they are over 21? Would you think differently depending on their race/appearance? Would you act differently if they either explained they only carry it for personal protection and are responsible, or if they start reciting the Second Ammendment and why should be allowed to carry it?
This is for men, because I have honestly not met an officer that would honestly arrest a women who did nothing major wrong and had a small pistol in her purse or in her car for protection from a rapist...
posted
Your scenerio is way too vague. Whow do I discover the gun? If he was walking why did i stop him? Minor traffic stop? How do I discover the gun. Just because I have discretion doesn't mean he gets a free walk it all depends on the totality of the circumstance.
posted
The very fact that this thread exists at all is said. It presupposes that law enforcement is Proactive in regards to concealed carry.
Let me answer the question asked. I am non LEO and I have a squeaky clean record.
LEO may or may not arrest depending on the age and demeanor of the non licensed carry; very arbitrary. At 39 years of age and as a combat Vet, I still feel that the age of 21 with no mental illness or criminal record (and proper training) is all a person needs to carry.
I am ready to face the rath of the LEO who may say "its unsafe" "You don't deal with potential perps at 2AM" whatever. My response is that you volunteered for the job, you were not drafted. On that note, I don't remember when a LEO protected me from "bad guys." I was protected from myself when I was pulled over for a safety belt violation though.
One more thing. I am telling my opinino and the truth (in my last statement). Please do not consider this a "flame" or a personal attack.
posted
The question was intentionally left vague so that ya'll could explain what factors would influence your actions. If parked, say he had to get his papers out of the glovebox and you saw it in there as he was closing it back; maybe it slid out from under his seat while he was sitting there and he didn't realize it but you saw it between his legs. Maybe he was walking and you popped him on a smaller charge, but noticed the bulge/outline of a holster underneath his clothing, or the strap from the holster briefly was exposed due to a gust of wind......
quote:Originally posted by Bergerboy: The question was intentionally left vague so that ya'll could explain what factors would influence your actions. If parked, say he had to get his papers out of the glovebox and you saw it in there as he was closing it back; maybe it slid out from under his seat while he was sitting there and he didn't realize it but you saw it between his legs. Maybe he was walking and you popped him on a smaller charge, but noticed the bulge/outline of a holster underneath his clothing, or the strap from the holster briefly was exposed due to a gust of wind......
every situation is different. If I arrest someone for something and they have a gun then it stands to reason they get charged for the gun if they don't have a permit. It they were already up to something, then I find out they were up to something with a gun I'm not gonna get a warm fuzzy over being 2nd amendment brothers and let them walk I'm gonna look at them as being a bigger problem than i thought and act accordingly.
posted
Also depends on the state you are in. Some states allow open and concealed carry without a license. Some states allow handguns loaded and hidden in cars. As TP said, the question is WAY too vague to give a "blanket" response.
I'll inject some suppositions:
We're in the state of La, you are stopped for a traffic violation, and you have a gun hidden in your car that you don't tell me about.
I'll conduct my checks on your DL for warrants, write the ticket if necessary and have you sign. Once you sign you're on your way. The gun is not a factor as I did not know about it.
Lets say you tell me about it. In La, it's not against the law, so I'll say thank you for letting me know, and ask where in the car it is. I'll then (depending on my comfort level with you) ask you not to reach for it or handle it in any way, and to keep your hands on the steering wheel throughout the remainder of the stop, or remove you from the vehicle, or remove the gun from the vehicle until the stop is done. If I remove the gun from the vehicle, I will unload it, and it will be returned to you upon the completion of the stop unloaded, whereupon I will ask you not to load it until I have left.
Most police are not anti-gun. They are just officer safety consciencous...
quote:Originally posted by Bergerboy: The question was intentionally left vague so that ya'll could explain what factors would influence your actions. If parked, say he had to get his papers out of the glovebox and you saw it in there as he was closing it back; maybe it slid out from under his seat while he was sitting there and he didn't realize it but you saw it between his legs. Maybe he was walking and you popped him on a smaller charge, but noticed the bulge/outline of a holster underneath his clothing, or the strap from the holster briefly was exposed due to a gust of wind......
If you are doing something that is against your state law, then expect to be arrested or charged for it. If you don't like your state law on CCW, then move to a state that is more agreeable. VT has no CCW law.....
COP LET'S MAN WITH GUN GO--MAN KILLS EX-WIFE, 2 KIDS AND WIFE'S PARENTS.
Deputy Lazy said "He seemed like such a nice boy......" Deputy Lazy is on administrative leave pending filing of criminal charges. Suspect reportedly had a long history of mental health issues. County officials are recommending a citzens panel be formed to study and recommend how much discretion LE's should have in performing their duties and what new gun control laws could be enacted to prevent this from happening again.
posted
Basically what I do is is run the guy NCIC and in our in house computer if he is not a thug he walks. But if I am searching the car as in your scenario something would definately be up. I do not search cars unless I believe some crap has gone down.
posted
a cop is gonna bust you if you a a firearm if he can! Most LE that I have met are very pro second amendment when if comes to themselves, fellow LE and family of LE- everyone and I mean everyone else is a potential punk and will be treated accordingly by LE. I was a LE officer a would not do that again I refused to be a JBT.
quote:Originally posted by CLC: a cop is gonna bust you if you a a firearm if he can! Most LE that I have met are very pro second amendment when if comes to themselves, fellow LE and family of LE- everyone and I mean everyone else is a potential punk and will be treated accordingly by LE. I was a LE officer a would not do that again I refused to be a JBT.
being a cop does not make you a JBT. You become a JBT when you quit following the Constitution and Bill of Rights. Your view of your self as a LEO tells me you were not trained properly. A cop should consider himself a peace officer. A LEO is someone who is an enforcer thus LEO. A peace officer is just that. You maintain the peace and your soul objective isnt to take everyone on the streets to jail but improve the quality of life of your citizens.
I am pleased to hear your personal views. My personal view is that a uniformed officer will be considered a JBT until they speak to me and take/don't take certain actions.
I have ran across both in my life. The majority were Peace Officers, but the minority make it bad for you (and me). You, yourself personally know in your Law Enforcement network who is, and who isn't a Peace Officer.
I wish there was a published list of the good and bad Police Officers.
quote:Originally posted by CLC: a cop is gonna bust you if you a a firearm if he can! Most LE that I have met are very pro second amendment when if comes to themselves, fellow LE and family of LE- everyone and I mean everyone else is a potential punk and will be treated accordingly by LE. I was a LE officer a would not do that again I refused to be a JBT.
being a cop does not make you a JBT. You become a JBT when you quit following the Constitution and Bill of Rights. Your view of your self as a LEO tells me you were not trained properly. A cop should consider himself a peace officer. A LEO is someone who is an enforcer thus LEO. A peace officer is just that. You maintain the peace and your soul objective isnt to take everyone on the streets to jail but improve the quality of life of your citizens.
Message to the American Police Officer By J. Croft 3-26-5
Ever feel like a tool?
Ever feel like an ass enforcing a arbitrary speed limit with the same force as you would chasing away drug dealers and creepy trench coated old men from elementary schools? Ever wonder what the hell you or your partner were doing arresting that victim of criminal assault - ever wonder what you were doing making that assault? Making an anthill into a 'prosecutable' mountain so that your partner, or God forbid, yourself, can make a collar? Or standing by and stonewalling a desperate person pleading for your help, turning them away so that they go over the edge and create another bust or two for yourself?
Ever feel like part of the problem, even though you're told that you're part of the solution? Well, thank God you at least feel some responsibility for what you and your 'brother officers' have done to help destroy America.
That's right; modern American policing is destroying America. It's a preening cult of overtestosteroned man-children; 'cowboys' looking for the slightest excuse to wreck some lives to make bustsÖ for the 'law'.
And who do you wind up sending to the disease-ridden homosexual rape camps known as prison? Poor white, black, and brown trash deliberately dumped down and corrupted by a covertly communist education system and mass media
you’re rousting the wrong people-while the criminal rich steal from us all. The criminal rich who are behind the shows that you recoil in disgust atÖ if you still can recoil in disgust.
The criminal rich who back the foundations and unions who have long ago transformed American education into a manufacturer of adult children-unable to think for themselves, ignorant of their heritage of Freedom and God, conditioned into having a programmed hostility towards knowledge and those who still value it despite the programming.
The criminal rich who have over the decades progressively made living in America a desperate struggle for survival as the jobs that can still sustain that seductive lie known once as the 'American dream' are sent overseas to poor Chinese and Indians who will NEVER know of it.
The criminal rich who are mass produced by this nation's overabundant law universities and become the trial lawyers, judges and representatives. The same pack of lawyer rat *******s who have literally downed entire forests to print all the bureaucracy that has killed all the joy of being a Free Man in America and given you 'peace officers' a cornucopia of 'law' to 'enforce'.
Law
a rich man's game as it takes a rich man to go through eight years of law school and college and a hundred grand in tuition to become a lawyer. A move to keep as much of the people the laws are targeted against from learning their convoluted rules as possible, and still maintain this fiction that their 'laws' come from the People.
It hasn't sunk in that the law is one of America's worst rackets?
Let me run down a few categories for you; see if they mesh with what America is supposed to be...
Traffic Laws
these are nominally to keep about two hundred million motorists safe on the road, they've long ago been turned into a vile source of revenue and colossal waste of police resources. A vile source of revenue as it's a fear based tax based mostly on driving habit, and a colossal waste as traffic detail ties down you guys-who could be investigating shady folks like Ken Lay of Enron, or tracking down who's really bringing more and more dope into the country. Or even something as picayune as the corruption of the local government-which cuts your paycheck. But it's a lot easier to play with some hapless Citizen than any local power broker who could break you, isn't it?
DUI
Used to be you had to be honestly drunk and a threat to get pulled over for this. Now, it's past overkill; the new drunk laws can mean a single beer and you're screwed. That and your God**** checkpoints are killing off being able to go out. This is one of the few outlets Americans seem to have left, and what do we find-a gauntlet of you bust hungry *******s to run through. "Thanks".
And if you're homeless! These lawyer made 'anti-vagrancy' laws mean if a American loses their job, winds up sleeping in their car or on the street, you guys roll on them and give them a ticket to the nearest homosexual rape palace-which you call the county jail. What the hell did these people do besides come out losing in a increasingly hostile economy? They drink and take drugs, yes-you would too if you were cast to the bottom of a socio-economic pit you have no hope of climbing out of.
Persecuting crime victims for protecting themselves; too many of you get mortally offended when average folks use a gun to prevent their own mortal demise. You see anyone but a fellow bureaucrat armed, and it's like he or she might as well have raped schoolchildren with you. You forget the Bill of Rights recognizes each and every one of us has the God given Right to armed self defense? What is about the very thought of the People being able to match you in firepower that scares you? Are you looking at all of us as opponents?
Are you that twisted, that brainwashed by that perverted cop culture you've swan dived into that your fellow Americans are your enemy? Are you even aware that you are brainwashed, conditioned into being the razor edge of the spear of totalitarianism that's being thrust into the very heart of our People?
What does freedom mean to you?
Does it mean anything? Or is it just another word?
Does it mean an ever increasing stranglehold of 'laws' that just give power to the state and it's bureaucrats in a piecemeal fashion, so as to not arouse righteous opposition?
Do these laws reflect the respect for you as a free person? Do they protect us all from a evermore invasive and belligerent government?
Does more bureaucracy not expose the people to more and more pushy, uppity, obnoxiously authoritarian small minded cretins in cheap suits-given way too much power? And, if more bureaucrats are a threat to all of our livelihoods and freedom then doesn't it make sense that more laws and regulations would only give these white collar scumbags just that many more excuses to rob us of what is rightly ours?
Wouldn't LESS LAW be better for a free society?
You know the answers. You also know that the lawyers are not going to have a sudden change of heart and start reversing all the damage done to our nation. You also know that most bureaucrats are not going to look at a person and a rule and not enforce it.
So that leaves one person left, one safeguard remaining from the state confronting another innocent victim-you.
YOU are the people's last line of defense from a out of control state!
It's your choice: stand with the People or stand against them!
The time is NOW to choose! More tyrannical law is being passed by more and more tyrannical lawyers and other sycophant bureaucrats. Enforced by tyrannical bureaucrats mistakenly armed and sworn, they cause more and more people to HATE YOU. This added hatred, along with the increasingly techno Stalinist bent of our "laws" will make YOU a TARGET for those unable to "cope" with the loss of their Freedom. A target literally.
For the sake of our Children, our Nation and your own ability to look in the mirror without recoiling in shame, resist.
How You Can Resist
Get to know your non-cop friends again, and your neighbors. You probably let those relationships go bye-bye when you bought into the crap that cops are "a breed apart". The people you joined the force to 'serve and protect'; and you view them as scum?
Your mindset will be the first obstacle to overcome, but since you're reading this you're hopefully already on that road. The 'cop culture' like most aspects of American culture is managed by it's own 'gatekeepers' who serve an Agenda-to fill your discipline and duty oriented mind with all sorts of psychological cues that herd you into being a insufferable elitist.
Yeah, that's what that 'they' want-there's always a 'they' around to ruin it for everyone. You blindly enforcing laws which oppress everyone. 'They' fill you with pride in your profession, give you a cool looking uniform, all sorts of means to carry out your job-and you get guns! All of which are but bait-egotistical masturbation.
Assaulting this egotistical masturbation is your first duty, assaulting your 'brother officers' programming as you can is your second duty. There is a line, and it's different with each individual, but it basically is their patience at listening to you challenges what they've been programmed with. Don't count on getting them to see the light quick, as you know the program Ming’s thorough and very deep. Don't push too much, and use examples you come across. This is a war-not a battle.
Your third duty: shielding the People as best you can from the ravages of the laws lawyers pass. Look into your heart-if you are with God, you will know which laws are sensible (stopping murder, rape, robbery, reckless drivers, and crack dealers selling to grade school kids). The rest (niggling regulations, laws that rob people of their rights) must not be enforced. They must be IGNORED.
Ignoring as best you can, because your supervisors watch you to make certain you do your job as proscribed by them. You're in a bad spot, and sometimes you will be forced to pick your battles. Sometimes you won't be able to directly help someone about to get steamrolled by the state. You'll have to surreptitiously get evidence of their innocence and get it to a attorney willing to fight for their freedom. Sometimes you'll encounter a scumbag son of a bitch-who's shielded by the local powers-that-be. That person might even wear the same badge and uniform as you. Here is where you shall have a real gut check: what if there isn't a way to stop this ******* legally? What if this state sanctioned criminal plants dope to cause a raid and asset forfeiture seizure? What if this human sized cockroach is going to whack a 'troublemaker'; someone working for Freedom just like you?
How far will you go to do something about it? And can you do it smarter-as in being able to get away with it? There are people who know of these things and one or two even wrote books on the subject if you can't get a hold of that someone. Beyond that I dare not say what you should do, except that it needs doing, and nobody's doing it at all.
There's more you can do; a lot more. You can do this under a alias or not, but it's my wish you cops would start showing the People on a individual and community level how they can defend themselves from the bureaucratic predators. How to get around the bureaucrats, and who among them are still patriots. There are bad and good in every walk of life, and if bureaucrats can see that they too can join in renewing freedom, this struggle shall end in victory that much faster! Motivating them as officers to actually stand up and as a group demand that laws start getting scrapped. Tell them that they wouldn't have so many cops and bureaucrats in their lives if there weren't so many laws for them to enforce. Make it plain that their lives will NEVER get better if they let themselves keep being hypnotized by that electronic narcotic called the TV.
Teach the People how to physically defend themselves and their communities. Yes, if you love freedom this would include the safe and effective use of firearms and when to do it. Your police and military training makes you a natural choice to teach the People. Yes, this incurs the risk of being labeled a 'militia', but for hundreds of years the gathering of all able bodied adults in case of a collective danger was a key part of American civilization. They organized and drilled and shot their rifles in Public Square it was that enshrined. It was when a permanent, standing US Army and a permanent standing professional police force that the Citizen's Militia quietly faded away from American public life.
The militia isn't a bad thing actually. If you actually read the older historical accounts there are examples-like during the 1800's when the James Gang got cut to pieces in Minnesota; the townsfolk got their guns and resisted, and won. Likewise, in Athens, Tennessee in 1946; returning GI's tried to win a local election to clean the crooks that had been running the town into the ground for decades. The crooks attempted to rig the election and went so far as to hide in the jail and shoot at gunpoint anyone who tried to stop them. The GI's borrowed some National Guard rifles and shot it out with them, and won. More recently, a few years ago, the State of New York attempted to enforce cigarette taxes on a Native American Tribe and came with dozens of State Troopers; the entire Tribe greeted them with muzzles of their assault riflesÖ the Governor wisely negotiated a compromise.
So that's the point: collective resistance works! And it doesn't and shouldn't if at all possible have to be violent. A second hand personal story: days after the Columbine massacre a public school mandated ID tags for every studentÖ ostensibly to stop a massacre. A bunch of them got together and smuggled in water guns painted to look like real guns, and objects made to look like sticks of dynamite. They presented them to the principal and asked him if ID tags stopped them from bringing in their made up weapons, and would it stop real weapons from getting inÖ the ideal was scrapped.
Peaceful noncompliance works if done en masse. The emphasis should be first local; pushing back the bureaucracies that strangle our lives. Start small, always, and build on that. First you and your people could do something like get the parking meters removed. Then build on that with pushing back niggling housing codes. Your weapons are your wallets; collectively threaten to wage a tax strike, or a labor strike(don't forget to prepare with extra cash and food).
Then expand to strike at the big oppressions; property taxes, traffic laws, anti-constitutional gun bans, drivers licenses and car plates, caps on laws made. Each victory builds on itself and similar advances made by other like minded individuals. YOU can lead this; you have the drilled in discipline, social standing and leadership, AND, you know something of the dirty tricks the bureaucrats and traitor cops will pull to stop us. You're in a position to protect this necessary revolution. YesÖ a revolution to win back what our ancestors gave all for over two centuries ago.
Together we can resist and win back our freedom. Our first obstacle to unifying as a people is to overcome our racial and caste barriers-and as a cop, you are part of a casteÖ call it the enforcement caste, made up of bureaucrats and law enforcement. You as a American must reach out to those that have been maneuvered and manipulated to be your intended enemies, the working and underclass castes-the people you're sent out to roust for fines and make busts on.
Unite with them, because our enemies are the lawyer caste that makes and judges on the 'laws' they make, and the caste of the super rich. These people buy the lawyers out, and have systematically looted America of our industry, our technology, our prosperity, and by their house slave lawyers, bureaucrats, and cops, our freedoms. They've reduced us Americans to being a military state-our real economy, our society propped up on a life support of debt that they, the super rich can yank with but a few manipulations of their financial markets. They will most likely do this in a manner much like yanking the cord on life support for a dying manÖ which is what America is.
They want the world, and have used America to trample any and all opponents. They now look to use the last allotted strength of America's military might to batter the nations of Earth into a global empire run by them-with America to be consumed by economic and political collapse and a engineered multi-front civil war NOBODY but the super rich will win. And that's why you acting NOW to begin fighting for Freedom must be your one priority. This war we are in, it's bigger than one individual or family or community. But if you don't join the fight, you make victory for us all that much more difficult, and how will you face God with THAT crime on you?
posted
I may be new to this site but I do find a few of theese post more than a little anti-cop. I find most of it to be a personal attack on all LEOs. I have been a LEO, yes law enforcement officer, for 17 years. I do not have a problem with the term LEO even though it only explains part of what I do.
I find the JBT term an insult and those who look at all LEO's as JBT's until the LEO has proven themselves otherwise, you should look at your own perspective. By the way, I had to look up the term JBT on google because I have never heard of it before. Perhaps a few of you have had bad encounters with LEO's and have formed that impression. I have had similar encounters with citizens but do not classify citizens as Jack A$$es until they prove they are not.
Calling all LEO's JBT is the same as calling all survivalist crazy, or all Christians right wing extrimists, or every citizen a LEO encounters a criminal...until proven otherwise. Certainly starting your encounter with a LEO with the attitude he or she is a JBT will probably cause them to be one because we tend to respond to what is presented to us.
For the former LEO if you think being a LEO made you a JBT then that was your personality and training, not the badge. A badge does not create personality it only allows some to display theirs in public view. I have worked with far more good cops than bad.
I think Aries represents the vast majority of law enforcement. I have no problems with the term LEO. It just happens that the State of Florida does not have an official term Peace Officer, so we do not use it.
I have never arrested anyone for carrying a concealed weapon (CCW) who was not in the process of, or just committed another crime. I have encountered numberous people who have had guns, knives, clubs etc in their vehicle and some on their person over the years. All LEO's have a certain amount of discretion they are expected to use.
I believe that the 2nd amendment says that each citizen has the RIGHT to own firearms. I will defend that right, and unlike another poster said, not just for my family. However, I do think there is a limit, somewhere between full auto long gun and nukes. I truly feel the average citizen really does not need to own a full militarized M1A2 Abrams Tank for protection.
I do not particularly like enforcing traffic, although Timothy McVeigh and Son of Sam were both caught because of traffic enforcement. So there is more to traffic enforcement than what meets the eye. I enjoy spending mmost of my time helping the victims of crime get through what they have been confronted by. I also enjoy proactive work, walking through dark alleys at night and finding something that is amiss. I enjoy meeting the people who work and live in the area I am assigned. Building a relationship so they will trust me when they need to talk with someone about a problem. It also gives me the opportunity to learn who belongs there. So when I see someone walking along the side of a house at two in the morning I know if it is a home owner or a perp trying to victimize someone.
I have held the hand of small children who have witnessed daddy beat the crud out of mommy. I have done CPR on grandpa right in the middle of a large family gathering. I have provided first aid to someone's daughter who was mangled in a car wreck caused by a DUI. I have held in my arms the grieving wife and children of a husband and father shot down at his front door. I have burried more LEO friends than I want to, through murder, suicide and accident. I am an American law enforcement officer and proud to be here to help and serve our citizens.
posted
my personal opinion is you cannot be a good police officer and NOT ignore bad law..
which isn't in the job description..
but even if you are willing to, the qualifications for the job doesn't filter out potential JBT's..
it's not that there are so MANY.. it's that there ALWAYS a few.. and in some spots, there's an oversupply, depending on how slimy the local government is..
peace officers ignore a LOT of laws. they enforce the peace, not the law. but they have little cause to do so, it's more like they can do that IF they want, IF no one is watching, and IF they have enough maturity and self confidence to make snap decisions and live with the consequences.
I'm NOT sure that a LEO doing that isn't a wild cannon.
It might work ok for a small town sheriff, but i don't think it'd fit a metro police department very well..
posted
"Dont bother denying the truth of this statement. We get lumped into the "scum" camp, and as people that are potential suspects until proven otherwise.
So, I do the same with LEO, you are a potential extorting JBT until proven otherwise. LEOs dont trust me, and I don't trust LEOs, it's that simple."
Kent, so what you are telling me is that you already know who I am and how I think and that I am a JBT? If I read your post correctly? It is a sad state of affairs when citizens feel that is the way it must be.
Since you have never met me and you do not even want to give me a chance to be proven one way or the other and you have already made up your mind. I guess the citizens, or at least some, are guilty of the same thing that they blame the cops of being guilty of, profiling based upon perception not fact.
90% of the people I deal with are not suspects and are good people. Unfortunately LEOs deal with most people when they are at their worst, either as a victim or suspect. I have never had anyone call a LEO just for social reasons, it is always because they are having a bad day to begin with. Of course I have never found anyone who I have pulled over in a good mood either. Afetr all it is my fault they were driving like a lunatic.
posted
while i'll give law enforcement officials the benefit of the doubt.. (and NO crap, they might just be having a Very Bad Day)..
i do assume every single one is a frayed nerve away from JBT behaviour.
ALWAYS. I'd be as liable to diss one as to lick the muzzle of a 10 gauge.
sorry. ya'll carry guns, defend tyranny, enforce uncivil and repressive laws, support the system that's bleeding our nation to death.
I understand that many are practicing civic duty the best they know how.
I understand that some DIE trying to do the right thing, and that (IMO) makes em heros.
But 'In General'.. JBT by inclination or NOT.. every single LEO has the potential to be forced into such a role by 'higher authority'..
and i'm NOT on that side of the fence. no matter how nice ya are.. no matter how necessary it is Somebody do that job.. no matter how DANGEROUS that job is...
quote:Originally posted by mitchshrader: I won't forget NOLA gun confiscations. never.
I agree with you that not only was this wrong, as in not doing the right thing, but also unconstitutional. Especially in times of disaster people have the right to defend themselves. I have no problem with a citizen sitting on their front porch protecting their property when "crimnal elements" are robing, looting the neighborhood etc. I don't think it would be prudent for the same citizen to walk into K-Mart with their 12 gauge locked and loaded while picking up needed supplies durring the same disaster. There is a time and place to display and a time and place not to display.
I can almost understand, but not agree with, why the police commissioner tried to do this. In a time of civil unrest such as they had with "CRIMINALS" shooting at cops, relief workers and helos bringing in aid, it makes you a little edgey. However, you can disarm the criminals without disarming the law abiding citizens. I am willing to bet that the commissioner's sudden retirement had something to do with some poor decisions he made, including the one to try and disarm the citizens.
I can tell you from experience that almost every LEO has at times not enforced a law or not followed an order from a supervisor because they knew: 1. It was an outdated or non effective law, and there are some crazy ones. 2. The supervisor has issued an order that was contrary to law or just stupid. 3. Enforcing the law would make a bad situation worse.
LEO's are supposed to balance the law with some common sence. Unfortunatley common sence has not been taught by parents to children in many homes over the last 30 years. Most children are left to learn from the TV while mom and dad find their own entertainment.
Law enforcement is having a very tough time recruiting qualified applicants. We cut over 50% from the applicant poole by the time they have finished the psyc exam. We are trying to hire the best people for the job and it isn't easy.
posted
It sounds like a downward spiral between the relations of Civilians and Police. Police don't know if they are questioning an honest citizen or a criminal; the flip side is that the honest citizen isn't sure if they are dealing with a Peace Officer or Punk with a Badge (PWB).
Perhaps Squirrel Members can build bridges whereas Society as a Whole can't (or won't).
My question was initially sparked with a realization that the VAST majority of LEO's I have met have been egotistical punks. Not the types to go out of their way to make your life a hell, but arrogant enough to make sure they flex their "muscle" and have a prickish attitude.
There are a few good ones out there, the Good Guys that are friendly while in uniform and out.
I wished to see just how many of the "Modern Patriots" that were and/or are LEO's thought that unConstitutional laws should not be enforced...seeing as they are the "enforcer branch" of the government.
It depresses me to see that even patriot-professing folks on a small, tight webboard such as this will still deny the peaceful citizens their rights, even when not agitated or otherwise causing mischief.
If someone shows themselves to be a reasonable, peaceful citizen, why would you want to take them to jail for carrying a means of protecting themselves and others? Why ASSume the worst from the people you are supposed to be protecting?
posted
If they have not comitted a crime, I would run a 28 and 29, and if they were not wanted or a prohibited possessor. I would send them on their way. In Arizona you may carry openly in all but a few places.
posted
I am changing careers to become a Sheriff or Police officer. I am sick of construction.
I think the only way to change anything is from the inside. So I will become one and be a good one.
The point Kent makes is true, unfortunatly. I only know a few cops that I know personally to be good people and I can trust. All others I have to be on guard with. I cannot trust any of them.
For all I know, they are looking for a reason to nail me for something. Sorry. Thats the way it is.
Recent events have just solidified that feeling.
I know there are good ones, A few I know personally. The only way to change things is from the inside. So inside I go....
quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The people you joined the force to 'serve and protect'; and you view them as scum?
Dont bother denying the truth of this statement. We get lumped into the "scum" camp, and as people that are potential suspects until proven otherwise.
I will not deny that the writer believes this, however I do not. I don't see how anyone can make such a broad statement as that. Unless you personally know every living LEO you can't possibly know how they view you. Thats a lot like me saying truck drivers' are drug adicts because some use uppers.
So, I do the same with LEO, you are a potential extorting JBT until proven otherwise. LEOs dont trust me, and I don't trust LEOs, it's that simple.
That sounds a lot like you are saying I am a JBT until proven otherwise. I have no reason to not trust you and I do not think I have given you any reason to not like me.
Also, I have never been to Waco or Ruby Ridge, so don't hold that against me.
You have seen a problem, and you are pitching in to fix or at least mitagate the problem.
Aries & Pyro,
I hope you are in training or leadership positions, because some of your fellow officers, even here at the "tree", need your philosophy of the job forced into their buzz cut heads. In my not yet so long lifetime I feel that we once had more of you than them; however, I doubt that this is now or soon to be the case.
posted
I get along good with most of the LEOs that I meet but I would never trust any of them to be anything but "cops".
No disrespect intended but I trust them to do their job as ordered.For example,let's say you have a concealed carry permit but tomorrow the law changes & no one is allowed to carry. How many LEOs will ignore that law?
Or suppose tomorrow your state bans ownership of what is today a legally owned firearm...and you own one...and someone reports you for owning it... How many LEOs will refuse an order to confiscate it?
Some will refuse to do so but the majority will say "The law is the law...sorry!".
I believe it was Jack McLamb who said something like "Tyranny first approaches through law"...Laws are passed & LEOs enforce them.
posted
KENT, I understand and I am also sorry if I "read into" what you were saying. We, LEO's, tend to get defensive because so many want to blame us for everything from bad law to the poor court systems.
I agree that there are some LEOs who shoud not be LEOs. I agree that there are some who are good LEOs but poor communicators and just flat out come off as arrogant when what they are trying to do is be authoritative enough that they are not challanged by everyone. There are also a lot of LEOs that are good cops you just never get to meet.
LEos just like our military take an oath to uphold the constitution and laws of our state and country. It would be very difficult for us to pick and choose which felonies we do or do not want to enforce. I would much rather take a legal approach to overturn bad laws. Yes, it may take years but rightous persistancy will overcome evil in the long run, like the Brady Bill.
OLD BIKES, Thank you. I am a sergeant, teach inservice training and only about 5 years away from retirement when I will run to NC and hide in the woods. I may even burn my computer.
quote:Originally posted by ridgerunner58: I get along good with most of the LEOs that I meet but I would never trust any of them to be anything but "cops".
No disrespect intended but I trust them to do their job as ordered.For example,let's say you have a concealed carry permit but tomorrow the law changes & no one is allowed to carry. How many LEOs will ignore that law?
Or suppose tomorrow your state bans ownership of what is today a legally owned firearm...and you own one...and someone reports you for owning it... How many LEOs will refuse an order to confiscate it?
Some will refuse to do so but the majority will say "The law is the law...sorry!".
I believe it was Jack McLamb who said something like "Tyranny first approaches through law"...Laws are passed & LEOs enforce them.
Will you enforce tyranny?
As long as you weren't committing any other crime , I would.
COP LET'S MAN WITH GUN GO--MAN KILLS EX-WIFE, 2 KIDS AND WIFE'S PARENTS.
Deputy Lazy said "He seemed like such a nice boy......" Deputy Lazy is on administrative leave pending filing of criminal charges. Suspect reportedly had a long history of mental health issues. County officials are recommending a citzens panel be formed to study and recommend how much discretion LE's should have in performing their duties and what new gun control laws could be enacted to prevent this from happening again.
But why should somone with a gun be immediatly suspect? What ever happened to innocent until proven guilty?
posted
DSol...I think mercman is saying that if it is against state law to CCW and the LEO doesn't take action he/she could be in a heap of trouble for not doing so, if something went wrong later involving that weapon. It is the typical if nothing happens you are a hero. If it does hit the fan you are the goat. Most people do not understand the liability that a LEO takes on when they raise their right hand and take the oath.
quote:Originally posted by trap: for the best outcome for all involved, i think it would be best to inform the officer that you are armed at the first opportunity.
Not unless I was asked first. In a state where concealed weapons permits are issued, the officer will know very soon if you have a permit. Things could still get dicey depending on the officer you are dealing with. Last time I was stopped, I was ordered at gunpoint to turn around, to put my hands on my head, get down on my knees, and I was disarmed and placed in handcuffs before anything went any further. What fun. Luckily for the officer, I understand why he may be fearful of an armed citizen. CWP holders don't all play nice all the time. He just wanted to get home at the end of his shift without any problems. Well, so did I, basically.
I've had better luck with state troopers in my area than the county deputies. The state troopers don't ask me to hand over my weapon or anything, they just want my hands where they can see them at all times. No problem. Same with the small town police near where I live.
quote:Originally posted by trap: for the best outcome for all involved, i think it would be best to inform the officer that you are armed at the first opportunity.
Not unless I was asked first. In a state where concealed weapons permits are issued, the officer will know very soon if you have a permit. Things could still get dicey depending on the officer you are dealing with. Last time I was stopped, I was ordered at gunpoint to turn around, to put my hands on my head, get down on my knees, and I was disarmed and placed in handcuffs before anything went any further. What fun. Luckily for the officer, I understand why he may be fearful of an armed citizen. CWP holders don't all play nice all the time. He just wanted to get home at the end of his shift without any problems. Well, so did I, basically.
I've had better luck with state troopers in my area than the county deputies. The state troopers don't ask me to hand over my weapon or anything, they just want my hands where they can see them at all times. No problem. Same with the small town police near where I live.
Not all states cross reference ccw with DL info. The officer you mentioned , if he was reacting to you telling him or he being informed of you having a ccw was over reacting. If I was his supervisor I would have to"speak" yeah that's the term,"speak' to him if I found out about crap like this.
posted
If you aren't legally carrying the firearm (don't have a CCW), then don't tell the LEO that you have a weapon, and don't give them any reason to find it (no reason to search you or your vehicle).
If at some point the 2nd amendment is repealed or otherwise made ineffective, then I'd believe that the right thing for most LEOs to do would be to resign, if they believe in the 2nd amendment. They'd be violating their oath to uphold the law if they overlooked a violation, but would be violating their principles if they arrested someone simply because they had a gun.
Unfortunately, there are plenty of LEOs who will sacrifice those principles (and a few who didn't have any to start with, but not the majority imo) and uphold a law, even a bad one, so that they can keep their jobs and support their families. That will be the point when an escape from America is a wise move.
quote:Originally posted by Old Bikes: Thomas Paine,
Thanks, Bad Shot was much too understanding of really bad behavior.
Why do I get the impression that you seldom have your Officers repeat a mistake after you "speak" to them?
OB
Not asupervisor(I refuse to sell my soul) but I am senior patrol officer in my department(That and a cup of coffee warms me up on a cold day) but I was brought up in LE to believe the senior had responsibilities to give guidance requested or not to the officers, and be a teller of truth to the command structure.(This means someone stays ticked at me most of the time ) Kinda like a SarMajor i the service. Hell the only perosn with more time than me in my department is my chief and we were patrol officers together.
I don't want to kill you. I don't even want to wound you. I admire your courage and the commitment you've made to help others, often at the risk of your own life. I hope you won't come for me, because if you do, one of us will die. It may be you. I've done nothing wrong. I don't intend to. But the government that you serve has passed too many laws. I am sure to accidentally break one, some day. And that same government is systematically destroying the unalienable rights which our Constitution says may not be infringed - very specifically, my right to keep and bear arms.
I am not some wacko lunatic, but I can no longer stand idly by, while decent people are systematically enslaved by an out-of-control government. I cannot allow a corrupt judiciary to use its power to destroy my rights and my country. That government and that judiciary has begun to use you to arrest and kill people just like me - people who believe that the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution and the Bill of Rights mean what they say.
You don't know me, but you see me every day. I may be a businessman, a truck driver, an executive. I could be a housewife or a salesman. But I am armed, as Americans have been for over 250 years, and I am determined to keep the freedoms that only an armed people may retain. With a rifle, I can hit a man-sized target at 800 yards. At shorter distances, in the blink of an eye, I can hit a head-size target with a handgun. I don't wear a uniform. I don't drive a marked car. I don't wear camouflage. I could be your own secretary, or your barber. I might be the guy who delivers your bottled water, or the parcel delivery lady. You don't know who I am, or what arms I have, and you never will. I am millions. I am America.
But I know you. I know your uniform, your car, and your work schedule. I know where you work, and where you live. And that is good for you, because not only am I no threat to you, so long as you do the job for which you are hired, I am also prepared to assist you when you are threatened. There aren't many of me left, you may think, but believe me, there are many, many more than you can imagine. When the chips are down, we are the ones who are truly on your side. On your side, that is, so long as you honor your Oath.
We are on your side if you are one of the majority of peace officers who are not corrupt and who have not sold out to the socialists and communists who will do anything, say anything to destroy the America our fathers and grandfathers bequeathed us. No, I am no threat to you, but your bosses in government don't see it that way. They think that I, and my arms, are a threat to them, and they are planning to send you for me, just as they've sent armed, dangerous officers on select little missions for years, taking out targeted individuals. On their orders, you may succeed in murdering me for my beliefs. Or you may not.
Whether or not you succeed in murdering me, as federal agents murdered Vicki Weaver in Idaho; or as those same federal agents murdered 81 men, women and children at Waco, Texas; there will be others who will rise up in my memory, as I now rise up in honor of the innocent lives taken by the jack-booted thugs and black-clad imitation ninjas who think it is fun to murder Americans -who have somehow become convinced that it is their job to murder Americans.
I am prepared to die, honoring my sacred Oath as an American, to defend and protect the Constitution of the United States of America. Are you prepared to die to violate the Oath you took? You see, our government is out of control. You know it. You've seen it. But you, like many others, have been too concerned with your job, your family, and your pension, to say or do anything about it. Deep down, you know I am right. But you think you must follow orders.
Or must you? Are you going to murder me for having the courage to stand up for the country and the principles in which you believe? Are you going to go along with unconscionably illegal, unconstitutional orders, just as the "good" German soldiers followed their orders? Are you going to be a peace officer or a jack-booted thug? There is little difference between a street outlaw who murders and robs; and a uniformed thug who murders and robs under color of law. The result is the same. Property confiscated, lives ruined, families ripped apart, murder committed, and a free nation destroyed.
Look at history. Look around the world. As we move toward a lawless society, our country moves closer and closer to anarchy and then some form of fascism. Are you going to enforce unconstitutional laws? Are you going to be the private army of fascist dictators masquerading as democratic representatives? Or are you going to do your part to recapture America? Are you going to keep your eyes and ears open? Will you let me know when the jack-booted thugs in the SWAT teams have targeted me? Will you let your fellow officers know that they are being sold down the river by their corrupt masters? Don't come to kill me. Because I don't want to kill you. If you do come, you may succeed - if you get lucky. But don't count on luck, because it will probably be hard - ****ed hard. Like millions of other Americans, I am the son or daughter of a nation of riflemen - citizen-soldiers who have a rich heritage of beating the best the enemy can send against us. We are resourceful. We understand weapons and tactics. You are foolish if you intend to be our enemy. If you don't succeed in the long run, and you won't, here's what you can expect:
Ambushes of SWAT teams; the wholesale slaughter of all the jack-booted thugs who have murdered innocent Americans on the orders of their socialist masters; targeted assassinations and kidnappings of anti-Constitution judges; assassinations of anti-American, anti-gun politicians.
By your willingness to be a good little Nazi, you will have unleashed a civil war. It doesn't have to be that way. You can do something about it. It's easy. Read the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. Although you took an Oath to defend them, you don't see much of them in your training, do you? Today, these documents are considered dangerous by the government, just as King George found them dangerous over 200 years ago. Why do you suppose your leaders lead you to oppose the very rights you swore to protect? Why do they want a disarmed public? You know the reason. It has nothing to do with controlling crime. It has everything to do with using you to disarm, fine and control your fellow American Citizens.
quote: Aries said; A peace officer is just that. You maintain the peace and your soul objective isnt to take everyone on the streets to jail but improve the quality of life of your citizens.
Bingo!!! The new Sergeant just hit the nail on the head.
Thomas Paine, it only makes sense for you to take the test and begin your journey up through the ranks. You can have far more of a positive effect on policies and procedures at your agency as a ranking officer, than you ever will be able to as a patrolman. Think about...
quote:Originally posted by muleskinner: If they have not comitted a crime, I would run a 28 and 29, and if they were not wanted or a prohibited possessor. I would send them on their way.
Muleskinner, If they have not committed a crime, why are you talking to them and running the info in the first place?
posted
I have been reading all the comment here and they all basicaly say the say thing,it is all common sense. I have stopped many vechicles that have have firearms in them and had no problem whatso ever. Alot of it deals with the time of day where you are at. If it is deer season you stop some one for speeding and you walk up to 3 hunters in the vechicles of course your going to have fire arms,not a problem. But if I ask you are there any other firearms in the vechicle and you say no that is fine, But for what ever reason I find a violation and I take you out of the vechicle and you are carrying a hand gun evan though it is licensed you are going in hand cuffs. No# 1 you lied to me about any other firearms in the vechicle which means you have now jepordised my saftey by lying. What else are you lying about? If I ask you any other firearms in the vechicles and you say yes I have a register what ever on my side then we will deal with that and continue on. But now I know you have a ccw permit that tells me something about you. You did not get that from being a trouble maker. There are alot of things that happen on the streets you dont always see and sometimes the police dont take the time to explain or have the time to explain what is going on. As far as dragging someome out of their vechicle for telling me he has a permit and cuffing him and putting him through the wringer that is just plain wrong, I would'nt have dropped that one I would have brought that one to the news papaer. Legend911
posted
Every time I read a post about Jack Booted Thugs and cops coming to kill me I want to reply to the poster. But then I realize that if someone thinks cops are nothing but JBT because we hold such a position and that police encounters are only to kill people and we follow orders like Nazi death camp guards, the more I realize how many people are really out of touch with what we do.
There is no sense in trying to explain what we do and why we do it because these people have already made up their minds and will not even listen. I form that opinion because they flat out say “Are you prepared to die to violate the Oath you took? You see, our government is out of control. You know it. You've seen it. But you, like many others, have been too concerned with your job, your family, and your pension, to say or do anything about it. Deep down, you know I am right. But you think you must follow orders.“
Right at the beginning of the forum it is posted: "IT IS NOT ABOUT POLICE BASHING AND TRASHING.” Yet some feel compelled to come here and tell me what my thoughts are, where my alliances lay and what I would do. That is a bunch of crap because you don’t even know me. How can you pretend to know what I think, believe or would do in a given set of circumstance?
We may disagree about what laws are or are not constitutional. We may disagree about what the founders of our nation meant when they wrote the Constitution, all the Amendments and the Bill of Rights. It is good to debate these issues. It is bad to automatically discount anyone else’s opinion because it differs from your own. It is always good to listen and make decisions based upon what you discuss, evidence and facts. You never know when someone may show you something you never knew before and that could help change your mind. Wow! That closed minded stuff sounds a lot like Hitler, Stalin and our very own modern day Muslim extremists. Its my way or I kill you.
I suppose that if I interpret the Constitution to mean ABC I am then at liberty to do ABC without restrictions. What if I am they only person in the US that thinks the Constitution means ABC and everyone else thinks it means XYZ? OK, what if 1 million people think it means ABC and the other 294,734,134 people in the US say it means XYZ. Who is right then? Is it a matter of majority rules or do we select a wiseman with a Ouija Board to decide?
I think before you judge me for being a cop you should have a better established way of deciding what the Constitution says and a way to ensure it is upheld besides “This is what I believe the Constitution says and I will kill you if you try to keep me from doing what I want”. It is possible you are not 100% correct about everything you believe and think. Every now and then someone with a different opinion could actually be correct and you may actually be wrong. I know that I have my share of being wrong.
quote: Aries said; A peace officer is just that. You maintain the peace and your soul objective isnt to take everyone on the streets to jail but improve the quality of life of your citizens.
Bingo!!! The new Sergeant just hit the nail on the head.
Thomas Paine, it only makes sense for you to take the test and begin your journey up through the ranks. You can have far more of a positive effect on policies and procedures at your agency as a ranking officer, than you ever will be able to as a patrolman. Think about...
7th
My agency doesn't test and you enter a minefield where you are not fully management or labor. On top of that you must sell your soul to the company store to be a sargeant. I refuse to give up labor protections or compromise my personal integerity for a measely 1500 more a year. Our service is still developing growth pains as they turn it from a security service labeled police into a true policeing agency great leaps and bounds have been made but as long as we serve the local facility director who is politically motivated and the LE folks in D.C. who see us and want us to be cops we are screwed.
[ December 25, 2005, 01:24 AM: Message edited by: Thomas Paine ]
posted
If you are carrying without a license, you go to jail. That is the job of the police. And this is because:
The community, through elected representatives, creates behavioral standards in laws.
Local bodies, like selectmen and aldermen, set local expectations for police and citizen behavior.
Courts interpret the constitutionality of laws.
Elected district attorneys determine if and how the arrested are ultimately charged and prosecuted.
The accused go to trial in front of a jury, who will convict, or not, based on community standards.
The police play only a small role in the scenario. My opinion is that police discretion is a reflection of community standards. You may get cut a break on a small amount of marijuana, because I know the local court is going to dismiss the case on payment of court costs. But a minor will be arrested for attempting to buy alcohol, because that is what the community is demanding.
My experience tells me that if you have a gun and choose not to have a permit, you are likely to be involved in other anti-social behavior. If you are ineligible to have a permit and have a gun, you are likely to be involved in other anti-social behavior. My opportunity to prevent you from endangering others is to take action on the violation now, rather that investigate the crime you intend to commit later.
If you are carrying a gun without a permit in an act of civil disobedience, I am unlikely to have an encounter with you on a side street at night. You will test the law in front of the cameras on the front steps of the state house.
Personally, I believe in a literal interpretation of the Second Ammendment. I'd be happy if everyone was armed. But, as a member of a larger community, I understand that we have determined that there are limits.
If you don't like the community standards, work to change them or move to a place where you can do as you please.
posted
Opie: Good post. I assume you are LEO. If that is true, perhaps you can tell us more about why it is that when a police officer, after pulling you over for a "routine" safety/sobriety/license check, goes through your wallet , finds your Concealed Carry Permit and TOTALLY FREAKS OUT!! Calls for backup, "BOTH HANDS ON THE HOOD,@@SSHOLE, and tears the car apart looking for anything. I wound up with a ticket for burnt out turn signal on one of these deals. I'm middle aged, middle class and don't have a record.
Note: This is intended for information,i.e. "Part of training..." "The officer who did that is jerk..." "The fact that I am a large size one ..." etc. <Not intended as a hostile post.>
I don't see how it can be misunderstood. It is pretty clear and to the point.
"SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED"
which makes EVERY law infringing on that right unconstitutional.
nuff said.
(Note: not picking on any cops or anyone else. I understand this is a debate that will never end while the Constitution and the BOR exist.)
Opie and Legend, I carry because I value my safety and my families safety more than I value the law. In the majority of the PRK, you will not get a license unless you are a special person. California does not have a 2nd amendment clause and is not a shall issue state and does not recognize self defense as a valid argument for being armed outside of your house.
I am working hard to leave this place, but until then, I will take the chance and carry.
I have never had a problem and I have never done anything to draw attention. JMO, and it ain't worth a ****.
I'm glad there are cops like you guys on duty. I hope most cops are like you. We can't give everyone a bad name for the actions of a few, no matter how tempting it may be.
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) Kinda like a SarMajor i the service. Hell the only perosn with more time than me in my department is my chief and we were patrol officers together.
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