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To #1 The South, and #2 Southern Independance?
If the people of the US decided they'd had enough, and rebelled against a tyrannical government...would you support them?
And what if the US didn't do anything about tyrrany...would you support a rebellion originating in the South with the purpose of re-forming the Confederacy?
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wtf? Sorry but your open-ended question sounds like you're trying to flush out those who want to overthrow a government, for whatever purposes I don't know.
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OK, I guess I'll add a little disclaimer...the two open ended questions are HYPOTHETICAL.
Jeez..I've been around on this board for awhile...if you've never read anything that I've posted...I DO NOT WANNA Overthrow the government...I just wanna see a change back to the way it was when we started this Great Country.
so don't go accusing me of flushing people out...thats insinuating that I'm a agent provocteur. And just out of curiosity...how do you get "flushing people out" out of what I posted?
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Just wanted to stop in and apologize for snapping in my reply...yesterday was a bad day...I was sick with the flu and I'd just finished fighting a bad brush fire, and though thats no excuse for losing my temper thats what was goin on...so I apologize.
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I would support those who fight for Southern independence. As far as my dedication goes....All I can dedicate myself to is paying the light and fuel bill......and that seems to take up all of my time.
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Slavery was on it's way out anyway Todd so it is a moot point.
They might make things like property rights and the like legal and maybe even come up with something you could call, I don't know, a bill of rights?
It was much cheaper to hire a Chinese cooly to build a railroad in NM and put him in a shallow grave when he died of overwork, accident, etc. than maintain the health and well being of a slave in a cotton field in GA.
quote:Originally posted by rike: It was much cheaper to hire a Chinese cooly to build a railroad in NM and put him in a shallow grave when he died of overwork, accident, etc. than maintain the health and well being of a slave in a cotton field in GA.
Ohh that's a good one. You should have gone straight for the jugular and reminded me that my family and many other Spanish families owned Pueblo indians for slaves for 300+ years.
It is a very embarrassing part of New Mexican history. One I am not proud of and will denounce publicly. Something I do not see my southern brothers doing when the slavery subject comes up for them. Not that they are responsible for what their forefathers have done. But for many Americans the seeing the "stars 'n' bars" and folks proclaiming "The South shall rise again" is quickly interpreted as oh these guys are pro-slavery. Maybe it would help the South's cause to make sure the average Joe is clear that pro CSA activist do not support, and are not proud of, the enslavement of other human beings.
If I were a youg man on the Mason Dixon line, I would have wanted to fight on the rebel side in the "war of nawthurn aggression". They stood for many of the things I cherish, property rights, free trade, limited federal gov, etc. However, one issue clinches it for me. SLAVERY. I guess I'm putting on the blue uniform. Since the CSA supported slavery I could not have ever fought for them. In my opinion this was the clinch point for many folks picking sides. I would venture to say that if the CSA had ended and denounced slavery on the onset of the war they WOULD have WON THE WAR.
Oh but "Releasing the slaves would have destroyed the Southern economy!" Too F0cking bad. That is NO excuse for the enslaving of ones fellow man. Anyway, an all out war against people who beleived they were fighting to destroy the tyranny of slavery proved to be even more devistating to the precious Southern economy didn't it?
I most likely would never support any movement for Southern independence. And, I would have no sypathies for the members of such a movement until they made it clear their feelings on slavery. Whether it be just be a fantasy of modern slavery or opinions of it in the past. The difficult subject must be brought to light if the "new south" wants the recognition of anyone in this nation.
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PS We mostly used the Chinese as "remote detonation devices" for blasting in the mining industry of New Mexico. I am not aware of any railroad barons residing within the New Mexico Territory. I could be wrong
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Dear god, has this thread already degenerated into something this low?
Todd, if you seriously believe the Southern states seceeded simply over slavery, than please, take your discussions elsewhere.
It continues to astonish me that people here at Frugal's who claim to support Southern heritage still wallow in ignorance in thinking slavery was what the CSA wanted to preserve.
Btw Todd, considering this is your first post ever in this forum of any real discussion, you'll pardon me for not giving your posts much credibility.
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If you will please reread my post above, you will see that I DO NOT beleive that slavery was what the CSA wanted to preserve. As I stated above, the CSA wanted to preserve many things I hold dear. They were simply on the wrong side of the line with the single issue of slavery.
Wallowing in ignorance?
BTW Proglock, considering this is my first post ever in this forum of any real discussion, and you respond with insults and a lack of reading comprehension, you'll pardon me for not giving your posts much credibility. Touche, and good day Sir.
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Well gee, let me see here...you're not stuck on the slavery issue at all.
quote:Originally posted by TODD3465: One I am not proud of and will denounce publicly. Something I do not see my southern brothers doing when the slavery subject comes up for them.
Why would they? Maybe it's because they understand secession wasn't about slavery.
quote: But for many Americans the seeing the "stars 'n' bars" and folks proclaiming "The South shall rise again" is quickly interpreted as oh these guys are pro-slavery. Maybe it would help the South's cause to make sure the average Joe is clear that pro CSA activist do not support, and are not proud of, the enslavement of other human beings.
Again with your apologetic solutions. "In the event anyone ever takes up the CSA's cause again, they must immediately declare to be anti-slavery". Good god...
quote:If I were a youg man on the Mason Dixon line, I would have wanted to fight on the rebel side in the "war of nawthurn aggression". They stood for many of the things I cherish, property rights, free trade, limited federal gov, etc. However, one issue clinches it for me. SLAVERY.
I'm noticing a trend here.
quote:I guess I'm putting on the blue uniform. Since the CSA supported slavery I could not have ever fought for them. In my opinion this was the clinch point for many folks picking sides.
Now apparently your true nature shows...you continue on the slavery bit.
quote:I would venture to say that if the CSA had ended and denounced slavery on the onset of the war they WOULD have WON THE WAR.
You sir have absolutely no understanding of the history involving the reasons of secession, do you? Although of course you pretend it. How do you propose a slave-based economy convert itself into a free market/wage-based economy overnight? Would the denoucement of it at the onset of the war magicly produce all the needed food and supplies to fight that war? Would that denoucement also have stood well with the property owners and owners of existing slaves? Maybe if you read the Confederate Constitution you might be able to glean some knowledge from it.
quote:Oh but "Releasing the slaves would have destroyed the Southern economy!" Too F0cking bad. That is NO excuse for the enslaving of ones fellow man. Anyway, an all out war against people who beleived they were fighting to destroy the tyranny of slavery proved to be even more devistating to the precious Southern economy didn't it?
Pretending to be someone you are not, again, eh? You reveal your true self easily enough.
quote:I most likely would never support any movement for Southern independence. And, I would have no sypathies for the members of such a movement until they made it clear their feelings on slavery. Whether it be just be a fantasy of modern slavery or opinions of it in the past. The difficult subject must be brought to light if the "new south" wants the recognition of anyone in this nation.
Again with the slavery bit. You don't let up do you?
And to top it off, the post preceding this one...
quote:Probly not.
I wonder, would a modern, newly independaent, Southern nation make legal and support the enslavement of their fellow man this time around?
I think it's safe now to call you a yankee infiltrator.
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I thought we going to disreguard eachothers post. Oh well. I guess I'll try again to make myself clear.
You are absolutely right, I believe slavery is EVIL. I never hid the fact that I feel this way. I've stated over and over that although I know that other issues were involved in the secession the one issue of slavery is the trump card for me. I am not hiding that and never have. Again, I agree that the south was in the right on every issue save slavery.
Frankly, I don't care how tough it would be to convert a slave based economy to...yada yada. Owners of human beings should lose everything. Just as my ancestors lost nearly everything. They were committing a horrible sin upon their fellow man. If some state started taking slaves today I would be there to fight for there freedom.
OK, I'll play. Yup I'm a Yankee infiltrator. How'd ya guess? Now that I am found out, I should tell you my orders to infiltrate your Rebel band come from President Lincoln himself. Long live the Union. Now give me smoke before ya string me up huh?
Please answer this question. Do you believe the enslavement of a human being an evil act?
quote:Do you believe the enslavement of a human being an evil act?
Yes, however I absolutely detest your tone when posting in this forum. Do you believe that every person today who supports the Southern cause of the 1860s is pro-slavery? Why not go down to your local SCV chapter and tell the members there that?
I also notice that you stick to the notion of slavery being an evil occupation localized only to the Southern States. Do you so easily forget other nations of the world that supported slavery, including the United States? Do you also easily forget several of our Founding Fathers being slave owners?
quote:Originally posted by ProGlock: [QUOTE] I also notice that you stick to the notion of slavery being an evil occupation localized only to the Southern States. Do you so easily forget other nations of the world that supported slavery, including the United States? Do you also easily forget several of our Founding Fathers being slave owners?
Seriously, are you just skimming over my posts?
You say I "stick to the notion of slavery being localized only to the Southern states". When I clearly wrote this:
quote: my family and many other Spanish families owned Pueblo indians for slaves for 300+ years.
and this:
quote: Just as my ancestors lost nearly everything. They were committing a horrible sin upon their fellow man. If some state started taking slaves today I would be there to fight for there freedom.
Not only am I demontstrating by these statements that I am aware that slavery has gone on elsewhere in the world, I am stating the my Spaniard ancestors were slave owners. And they definitely weren't localised to the South.
Heck, my Spaniard ancestors were slaves themselves way back when the moors conquered Spain. I know of the Romans, the Greeks, the Egyptiians, The Mongols, all civilizations not localized to the South that had slaves.
I keep referring to the South because this is the SOUTHERN heritage forum and not the Mongol heritage forum.
quote:Originally posted by ProGlock: [QUOTE] Do you believe that every person today who supports the Southern cause of the 1860s is pro-slavery? Why not go down to your local SCV chapter and tell the members there that?
I'm sorry I failed to answer your last questions.
I do not believe that every person who supports the souther cause of the 1860's is pro slavery. I do, however, believe that SOME of them do not think the slavery that occured in our country was wrong.
As far a going down to the local SCV chapter, that wouldn't solve anything. Apparently the singular issue of slavery -notice I said singular, as in there were others- is still a very passionate topic for both sides as is evident in our exchange here.
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In my recent research of my Confederate Ancestors, I found that General Grant owned slaves several years beyond General Robert E. Lee. How is that for the North being anti-slavery? In addition it was not the South that was buying and transporting the slaves to America. It was the Northern businessmen and ship owners doing that. When the slaves did not work well in the cold North, they were sold off to the South as farm labor.
In the War Between the States, slavery was a card played by Lincoln to enrage the Nothern public as this being about slavery instead of the other issues. If the South had kept the natural resources, instead of sending it North, the mills in the North would have practically shut down.
AS I do more research, it becomes more apparent, to me, that life would have been much better if the South had held out and won the War Between the States.
Just my $0.02.
We, as Southerners, need to get persons with a Southern viewpoint elected and work diligently to make appropriate changes within the government.
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First let me state that I am PROUD of my southern heritage. I don't know if my ancesters owned slaves. I personnaly consider people that use the slavery issue to frame "the war" somewhat uninformed or baiters. If you had been in the union army you may well have been commanded by a slave owner--one who continued to own slaves even after lincolns emancipation proclamation. Not all blacks were slaves and some free blacks even owned slaves-a few in large numbers. IIRC only about 1 in 4 families owned any slaves. The war was about control and money(as are most). If someone wishes to believe that it was for some other cause that is their right. Slavery is as much a hot button issue today as it was then --that's why lincoln used it. Because once emotion is introduced into an argument reason and civil discourse usually suffer. Worked then and works now.
Let's EVERYONE keep posting BUT let's keep it civil.
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Irish, well you already know my position in regards to your original question. For the rest, YEP and YEP. I'm a Southerner and will be till the day that I cross over Jordan.
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